[Ann] CintaNotes 1.7 Beta 1

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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 1.7 Beta 1

Postby CintaNotes Developer » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:20 am

Thomas Lohrum wrote:Not quite. What i meant is, that cn would represent the tag list in a hierarchical order, dynamically created. The result would be similar to what the tag list looks like with your new feature. But rather than making it up by definition, my suggestion is to create it dynamically when quering data.

Ok, now I understand what you mean. This is a kind-of related tags explorer, right? A virtual tree where you can navigate tag relations, where notes themselves define these relations.
I have two ideas how to implement this:
1) Extensions for the search box. After a tag is entered, Ctrl+Space suggests only tags related to the current tag selection AND to the tags entered into the field.
2) Maybe Tag Selection bar could also help here. It will allow to easily add related tags to the selection.
Alex
ChrisCN

Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 1.7 Beta 1

Postby ChrisCN » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:29 am

Thomas Lohrum wrote:For example create a note with title "iPad 3" and the tags "Apple iOS iPad Tablets". Now when i want cn to group by [Apple] i want the tag-sidebar to display:
Apple/iPad
Apple/iOS
Apple/Tablets

When i want to group by [Tablets] i want the tag-sidebar to display:
Tablets/Apple
Tablets/iOS
Tablets/iPad
Interesting - so the hierarchical definition is 'hidden' in the fact which tags occure in the same note. Doesn't this get very complex if you have:
- many notes that have different tags but also share some of them in some notes
- you want to 'group by' more than one tag/topic at a time (e.g tasks, projects, status,...)
- and you are limited to a 2 level hierarchy

Not that I want to talk you out of this idea - only searching for possible difficulties.
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 1.7 Beta 1

Postby CintaNotes Developer » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:29 am

ChrisCN wrote:Wow - what a cool suggestion - I want this feature 8-)
The only thing I still would be missing is a visual clue that such an Alt+Double-click would make sense for this tag.
>> Maybe we could show the tag count number in italic as a visual clue that there are notes directly assigned to this tag?


I prefer to avoid italics in the UI, just my personal taste issue ;) The problem is that this info is not readily available, CN will have to do some undercover queries to get this information. I'm not sure this is worth the trouble. In any case, I'd prefer a double number display, smth like
"6/132"
Alex
ChrisCN

Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 1.7 Beta 1

Postby ChrisCN » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:40 am

CintaNotes Developer wrote:I prefer to avoid italics in the UI, just my personal taste issue ;) The problem is that this info is not readily available, CN will have to do some undercover queries to get this information. I'm not sure this is worth the trouble. In any case, I'd prefer a double number display, smth like "6/132"
A double number display was also my first thought - but I also thought this was what you have meant with 'cluttered'.

Another suggestions to 'solve' the problem when to calculate this number:
After a tag in the sidebar is selected -> CN calculates if there are directly assigned notes -> and displays the number in a tooltip for a few seconds.
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 1.7 Beta 1

Postby Thomas Lohrum » Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:33 pm

CintaNotes Developer wrote:
Thomas Lohrum wrote:A hotkey would be useful :) for quick editing without the use of the mouse, when you need to edit several notes, e.g. after importing data. Yes, hide the source-field. No need for it at the moment.

Ok, how about Alt+Enter? This seems to be the standard shortcut for the Properties dialog.

Sounds cool.

CintaNotes Developer wrote:
Thomas Lohrum wrote:The value is:
"C:\Program Files (x86)\CintaNotes\CintaNotes.exe" -m
This is, where i have installed cn!

And, is it wrong? which CN instance is really run on startup? Which instance has this option checked?

I have one cn instance running only. The path is correct. The option is not checked, though. Start minimized isn't checked either. Allow multiple instances isn't checked, because i don't want to. I have Dexpot installed, just to let you know.

CintaNotes Developer wrote:
Thomas Lohrum wrote:With v1.6.2 i can create a note, jump to the tags field, enter a single char, which will open a list of related tags. The first item is selected! I press "space" and the tag is chosen.

Yes. So you're saying that the autoselection of the first item is crucial for you in this case?

Yes, this is crucial to me. I had the option activated long before it was available in the gui by setting it directly in the settings.ini.
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 1.7 Beta 1

Postby Thomas Lohrum » Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:43 pm

CintaNotes Developer wrote:
Thomas Lohrum wrote:Not quite. What i meant is, that cn would represent the tag list in a hierarchical order, dynamically created. The result would be similar to what the tag list looks like with your new feature. But rather than making it up by definition, my suggestion is to create it dynamically when quering data.

Ok, now I understand what you mean. This is a kind-of related tags explorer, right? A virtual tree where you can navigate tag relations, where notes themselves define these relations.

I like the way you can express what i mean in a perfect manner :)

CintaNotes Developer wrote:I have two ideas how to implement this:
1) Extensions for the search box. After a tag is entered, Ctrl+Space suggests only tags related to the current tag selection AND to the tags entered into the field.

Because of the (possible slow) "behinde the scences work" of the process, it can not be a standard view, i guess. Right now we have the tag sidebar using the F5 shortcut. Maybe we could have an Alt+F5-combination key to display the "virtual-tags-tree-explorer" as a separate view. I consider this a kind of report view. When this mode is active the search-box could indeed behave differently.

CintaNotes Developer wrote:2) Maybe Tag Selection bar could also help here. It will allow to easily add related tags to the selection.

It is somewhat similar, but the virtual-tags-tree-explorer fits it better.
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 1.7 Beta 1

Postby Thomas Lohrum » Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:52 pm

ChrisCN wrote:
Thomas Lohrum wrote:For example create a note with title "iPad 3" and the tags "Apple iOS iPad Tablets". Now when i want cn to group by [Apple] i want the tag-sidebar to display:
Apple/iPad
Apple/iOS
Apple/Tablets

When i want to group by [Tablets] i want the tag-sidebar to display:
Tablets/Apple
Tablets/iOS
Tablets/iPad
Interesting - so the hierarchical definition is 'hidden' in the fact which tags occure in the same note. Doesn't this get very complex if you have:
- many notes that have different tags but also share some of them in some notes
- you want to 'group by' more than one tag/topic at a time (e.g tasks, projects, status,...)
- and you are limited to a 2 level hierarchy

Not that I want to talk you out of this idea - only searching for possible difficulties.

Grouping of tags might be complex. But what for do we have computers in the first place? To calculate what might be to time-consuming for us! Also it has the huge benefit of extrem flexibility. If i would try to create these relationsips myself, i'd probably get nuts. This is, because what i need depends on a specific demand when quering my data, not when i create my data! The virtual-tags-tree-explorer would allow for this flexible retrieving of data.

I didn't say, i'd limit the feature to a certain (2nd level) hierarchy. My example did, but that was for an easy understanding only. Not sure though, what hierarchy-level would break complexity.
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 1.7 Beta 1

Postby Thomas Lohrum » Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:55 pm

ChrisCN wrote:
CintaNotes Developer wrote:I prefer to avoid italics in the UI, just my personal taste issue ;) The problem is that this info is not readily available, CN will have to do some undercover queries to get this information. I'm not sure this is worth the trouble. In any case, I'd prefer a double number display, smth like "6/132"
A double number display was also my first thought - but I also thought this was what you have meant with 'cluttered'.

Another suggestions to 'solve' the problem when to calculate this number:
After a tag in the sidebar is selected -> CN calculates if there are directly assigned notes -> and displays the number in a tooltip for a few seconds.

I too like double numbers. I don't like the tooltip tough, because it passes away automatically or maybe because i accidentally touched the mouse. I prefer a command to turn on/off numbers.
ChrisCN

Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 1.7 Beta 1

Postby ChrisCN » Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:28 pm

Thomas Lohrum wrote:Grouping of tags might be complex. But what for do we have computers in the first place?
Sorry for beeing so unclear. I meant it is complex to define what the result should be.

So if one note 'connects' the tags: task project project-X
and another note 'connects' the tags: food project project-Y
Does this create a relationsship between project-X and project-Y? (both are projects)
Does this create a relationsship between task and project-X?
... and so on - I think I have not yet fully understood how this would work.

Thomas Lohrum wrote:I didn't say, i'd limit the feature to a certain (2nd level) hierarchy. My example did, but that was for an easy understanding only. Not sure though, what hierarchy-level would break complexity.
I thought this is a limit by nature. Because a note that is tagged with: task, project projekt-X
--> does only define that those tags are 'connected' but there is no order within. --> how could you translate that in a 3 level hierarchy?
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 1.7 Beta 1

Postby Thomas Lohrum » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:35 pm

Hi Chris,

it's always fun discussing with you, as you are a committed CN contributor user yourself :)

ChrisCN wrote:I think I have not yet fully understood how this would work.

Me too, but i'll try ;)

ChrisCN wrote:
Thomas Lohrum wrote:Grouping of tags might be complex. But what for do we have computers in the first place?
Sorry for beeing so unclear. I meant it is complex to define what the result should be.

So if one note 'connects' the tags: task project project-X
and another note 'connects' the tags: food project project-Y
Does this create a relationsship between project-X and project-Y? (both are projects)
Does this create a relationsship between task and project-X?
... and so on - I think I have not yet fully understood how this would work.

First let me say, that i like to use plural for tags whenever possible. You quote it yourself, when you mention "both are projects" ;) And yes, your example would create a relationship. The relationship exists in the vtte (virtual-tags-tree-explorer or maybe shorter "tags-explorer") only.

I took your example and modified it slightly:

tasks projects project-X
food projects project-Y
tasks home garden

The output should be:

projects/project-X
projects/project-Y
projects/tasks
projects/food
tasks/project-X
tasks/projects
tasks/home
tasks/garden

The root tag is the tag having group-count>1, which is an implicit requirement to limit to "important" tags only. Because the other tags within this group have a count=1 each tag should be listed one time only, one level deep only. The nature of this is recursive - building up the tree.
ChrisCN

Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 1.7 Beta 1

Postby ChrisCN » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:20 pm

Thomas Lohrum wrote:Hi Chris,
it's always fun discussing with you, as you are a committed CN contributor user yourself :)
Thanks - I am indeed enthusiastic about both CN and information management in general. So your fresh ideas are more than welcome and stimulate my brain :)

Thomas Lohrum wrote: The root tag is the tag having group-count>1, which is an implicit requirement to limit to "important" tags only. Because the other tags within this group have a count=1 each tag should be listed one time only, one level deep only. The nature of this is recursive - building up the tree.
Thanks for the explanation - the 'group-count' was the missing link.

2 questions still confuse me:
- how can this method build up a hierarchy deeper than 2 levels?
- what about the hierarchies we have (predefined) - can they join in? (or are they of no additional use here?)
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 1.7 Beta 1

Postby Thomas Lohrum » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:24 pm

ChrisCN wrote:how can this method build up a hierarchy deeper than 2 levels?

Well, you made me spend even more time on this. I made up a more complex example.

Have 2 notes with the following tags
projects project-A customer-A software
projects project-B customer-A software

In its first level this would result in:
projects/
projects/project-A
projects/project-B
projects/customer-A
projects/software
customer-A/
customer-A/project-A
customer-A/project-B
customer-A/projects
customer-A/software
software/
software/project-A
software/project-B
software/projects
software/customer-A

The second level:
projects/
projects/project-A
projects/project-B
projects/customer-A/
projects/customer-A/project-A
projects/customer-A/project-B
projects/software/
projects/software/project-A
projects/software/project-B

The example is made up for "projects" only.

The third level:
projects/
projects/project-A
projects/project-B
projects/customer-A/
projects/customer-A/project-A
projects/customer-A/project-B
projects/customer-A/software/
projects/customer-A/software/project-A
projects/customer-A/software/project-B
projects/software/
projects/software/project-A
projects/software/project-B
projects/software/customer-A/
projects/software/customer-A/project-A
projects/software/customer-A/project-B

The example is made up for "projects" only.

Conclusion
When looking at this example, to me 2nd- and 3rd-level don't add a real benefit. I think i would be happy with the results of the first level. It shows my main concern. Building up a tag-tree, that allows to look up the same data from different perspectives. This can be achieved by an intelligent tag-explorer, without the need to have the user build up such hierarchys.

ChrisCN wrote:what about the hierarchies we have (predefined) - can they join in? (or are they of no additional use here?)

Well, maybe others can use their brain too ;) Imo, i would ignore them in the tag-explorer, since they build up their own hierarchy.
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 1.7 Beta 1

Postby jaroet » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:57 pm

That would mean that the order in which the tags are added are important. Because that way you define the third, fourth, ect. level. No more alphabetic ordering as it is now ... In that case I would prefer the WikidPad way and have a fully qualified tag-path in your note.
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 1.7 Beta 1

Postby Thomas Lohrum » Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:08 pm

jaroet wrote:That would mean that the order in which the tags are added are important. Because that way you define the third, fourth, ect. level. No more alphabetic ordering as it is now ...

No. This is not what i meant. The example did not include any order, other than my personal creation of the example data. You could also read the results as:

customer-A/
customer-A/project-A
customer-A/project-B
customer-A/projects
customer-A/software
projects/
projects/project-A
projects/project-B
projects/customer-A
projects/software
software/
software/project-A
software/project-B
software/projects
software/customer-A
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 1.7 Beta 1

Postby jaroet » Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:28 am

Hello Thomas,

I understand the first level. It is clear that when you use "projects" it takes all the other tags found and builds the grouping.
But in the second level you give the example:
projects/customer-A/project-A
projects/customer-A/project-B

If you work with "projects" as the search-item then why is it presented like this and not like:
projects/project-A/customer-A
projects/project-B/customer-A

The only reason I can see it is presented in that particular order is because the way the tags are ordered is like that particular order. Or am I missing something.

Jeroen
ChrisCN

Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 1.7 Beta 1

Postby ChrisCN » Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:46 am

jaroet wrote:Hello Thomas,

I understand the first level. It is clear that when you use "projects" it takes all the other tags found and builds the grouping.
But in the second level you give the example:
projects/customer-A/project-A
projects/customer-A/project-B

If you work with "projects" as the search-item then why is it presented like this and not like:
projects/project-A/customer-A
projects/project-B/customer-A

The only reason I can see it is presented in that particular order is because the way the tags are ordered is like that particular order. Or am I missing something.

Jeroen
Thanks - that is exactly why I thought we are limited to 2 levels.
choice one: only two levels are build
choice two: the order gets a meaning (which is not a good idea IMO)
choice tree: EVERY combination will be build (which will result into a really huge tree)

The next question to me is:
What can we do with this tag-explorer? Click on its tags to filter the note list?
Or is this some kind of grouping that will be used to represent the notes list in an ordered way?

The reason why I am asking is that I already suggested to group by tag name. My personal need is to get a fast overview about e.g. all tasks. The long list is a little mess for me at the moment.
Maybe those ideas can be combined?
But before asking such a question I should think about using my own brain (thanks for the hint Thomas ;) )
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 1.7 Beta 1

Postby CintaNotes Developer » Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:47 am

Thomas Lohrum wrote:I like the way you can express what i mean in a perfect manner :)

I guess two developers will always understand each other ;)

Thomas Lohrum wrote:Because of the (possible slow) "behinde the scences work" of the process, it can not be a standard view, i guess. Right now we have the tag sidebar using the F5 shortcut. Maybe we could have an Alt+F5-combination key to display the "virtual-tags-tree-explorer" as a separate view. I consider this a kind of report view. When this mode is active the search-box could indeed behave differently.

Speed is not the issue here. It is negligible because you only need to calculate for one tag at a time, when you expand it.
I think we should strive to unify these views, because one more view/panel adds more complexity. And I've promised to keep CN simple.

Thomas Lohrum wrote:It is somewhat similar, but the virtual-tags-tree-explorer fits it better.

I'm afraid many people will take virtual-tags-tree-explorer for real-tag-tree-explorer and become mad because the same tags appear everywhere))
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 1.7 Beta 1

Postby CintaNotes Developer » Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:52 am

Thomas Lohrum wrote:
CintaNotes Developer wrote:Ok, how about Alt+Enter? This seems to be the standard shortcut for the Properties dialog.

Sounds cool.


Oops, its already taken for "Open note and hide main window". Let's change that to Shift+Enter, while using Alt+Enter for Note Properties.

Thomas Lohrum wrote:I have one cn instance running only. The path is correct. The option is not checked, though. Start minimized isn't checked either. Allow multiple instances isn't checked, because i don't want to. I have Dexpot installed, just to let you know.

Hmmm, it is interesting that it is not checked. If the path corresponds to the path to the exe, it should be. I'll check it out.

Thomas Lohrum wrote:Yes, this is crucial to me. I had the option activated long before it was available in the gui by setting it directly in the settings.ini.

Ok, I think we'll have to do as was originally suggested: autoselect first item everywhere but the search box. Would that be ok for you?
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Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 1.7 Beta 1

Postby CintaNotes Developer » Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:55 am

ChrisCN wrote:A double number display was also my first thought - but I also thought this was what you have meant with 'cluttered'.

Yes, but better a bit cluttered than ugly ;)

ChrisCN wrote:Another suggestions to 'solve' the problem when to calculate this number:
After a tag in the sidebar is selected -> CN calculates if there are directly assigned notes -> and displays the number in a tooltip for a few seconds.

I think this can irritate when you switch between tags a lot.
For now I'm not really happy with any of the options. So let's just do the Ctrl+Double Click.
Alex
ChrisCN

Re: [Ann] CintaNotes 1.7 Beta 1

Postby ChrisCN » Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:56 am

I just had the idea of a choice number 4:
(Thomas mentioned that he wants to build this virtual tree
in a dynamic way - like a query that defines it)

So for a multi level tree we could define a query like
--> "show me a virtual tree build up by project first and customer second"
CN could assist us after choosing the first level 'project' it could present us of possible tags for the second level
And if we could save such a virtual-tree-query ...

But I am not sure if this was Thomas initial intention :?:

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